Интервью с баптиским историком Сергеем Савинским

September 7, 2010 · Adam Bondaruk, Baptists, Victor Belykh, AUCECB, Persecution, Interview, KGB, Books, Unregistered Pentecostals, Nikolay Kotyakov, On Emigration, United Church of Evangelical Christians, Vestibule, Petr Saenko, Pentecostals, Religious Mafia, Slavik Radchuk, Contemporary Persecution, Security Services

When foreigners ask me what my confession is and I answer that I am a Baptist, you can almost always notice surprise and hear questions: “A Baptist? From Russia? Where on earth did Baptists come from in Russia?” And indeed, it is a legitimate question. Where did we come from? Who are our forebears and who handed down the faith to us? Why are we not like everyone else? There is a whole story about that – interesting, inspiring, instructive and sometimes sad. We can learn its details from the two-volume work by S. N. Savinsky, “History of the Evangelical Christians-Baptists of Ukraine, Russia, Belarus (1867–1917; 1917–1967).”

interview

Sergei Nikitovich, is history your favorite subject?

First of all, I must say that I became a historian “by accident,” through an irony of fate. The fact is that when I was in school, and that was the 1930s, history was taught appallingly for five years. I did not come to love it because, starting from the fourth grade, the history syllabus was changed three times in a year. First they taught ancient history, then social studies, then ancient history again, then medieval history, and so on right up to the ninth grade. How could I come to love that history? No way! Then I had a rather long break in my studies, as there was the army, the front. And only when I entered the institute did I realize that history must be known. Not to know history means living blind. And then I became interested in history, above all the Middle Ages, and especially the Reformation period. I knew a little of our brotherhood’s history from my parents’ stories and from magazines preserved since the 1930s. But as for studying history as a separate subject, I did not do that. I was a geologist for thirty years, true, often visiting libraries where I collected various materials.

How did it come about that you, Sergei Savinsky, became a well-known historian of our Evangelical-Baptist brotherhood?

When the time came to retire, A. M. Bychkov, who was then general secretary of our brotherhood, approached me. He asked me: “Sergei Nikitovich, what will you be doing in retirement?” I said, “I don’t know, I haven’t thought about it yet.” Then he told me: “You know, we have good work for you. Necessary work. We have it in our program to gather materials and write the history of our brotherhood. There are many materials collected by Kovalkov, Motorin… Karev collected something and even wrote an essay for the brotherhood’s centenary. Yuri Sergeevich Grachev worked on the history, but it is all in scattered form and lies like dead weight. We need to gather more materials. I believe you have an inclination for research work; you have written more than one scientific report as a geologist… Take it on.” I thought and agreed. And so from 1979, when I retired, I took up this work. To do it, one had to go to central libraries, gain access to archives, find private archives… And by about 1983 a draft of the history was written, but only of the Russian-Ukrainian brotherhood. Other brothers were working on other brotherhoods. N. Sizov worked on Kyrgyzstan, Sedletsky wrote on Moldova, Ivan Petrovich Dik wrote on the German Mennonite brotherhood, and so on. And only by 1989 did the book “History of the Evangelical Christians-Baptists of the USSR” come out. That is the big red book. Half of its volume consists of my part. That was the “first swallow.”

Did the KGB or anyone else dictate to you what to write in that Soviet period, or carry out any kind of censorship?

In this regard I can say that there were no dictates at all. In general, the KGB only knew that someone was working on this. They could not not know. They only became hindrances through the Council for Religious Affairs and reviewed my correspondence. When I received materials about music education from Riga on the German Mennonite brotherhood, the packages were usually opened. There were unpleasant conversations about this with the communications authorities. But there were corrections from the AUCECB side. When the 6th chapter was written (that is the period of the 1930s), although it was written very restrainedly, nevertheless I was summoned to the historical commission and asked somehow “to smooth over the sharp corners in it.” I did not agree to that at all. I told them straight: “Brothers, I cannot; I have everything argued here, every point has references, and I cannot alter this chapter.” And then that chapter was given to another brother; he kept the materials for three months and refused to write. Then I was again summoned to the commission and they said: “Sergei Nikitovich, write as you see fit. We’ll correct it later.” In general, I told everyone: “For everything I write about I can answer individually, before anyone. I have references for everything to official documents. There is nothing invented.” If we wrote differently, not only foreign brothers or separated brothers would not understand us, but we ourselves would not understand ourselves. This is not a novel, it is history. Only such obstacles existed. And there were no directives. Moreover, I always tried to be independent of the AUCECB even in terms of material provision. I received neither travel allowances nor per diems, only funds to pay for travel tickets. I always said that I have a pension and I will spend it. I decided that for myself, so as not to be dependent, not to be under anyone’s dictate, and so that my conscience would be at peace.

Sergei Nikitovich, you mentioned earlier that there were some hindrances from the Orthodox Church. Tell us how that was.

There was a certain brother named Ageev, who had previously been Orthodox and had access to the Orthodox archives in Zagorsk. So he participated in collecting materials. And so he told me that after several visits to the archive while working in the library of the Moscow Theological Seminary, some “servant” came and watched him, Ageev, making extracts from documents. Then some Orthodox official came and said that from now on he was denied access to the seminary’s archives. Because they understood that this book would contain something undesirable for them. Then we had to obtain materials by other means, through the manuscript department of the Institute of Religion and Atheism in Leningrad, in the Kazan Cathedral. There was also a library there, once belonging to the Orthodox, in which many interesting documents from local dioceses had accumulated, to which I had access.

Already in the time of freedom, were you allowed into any archives belonging to the KGB?

At that time, no, they did not let me in. But after 1991, access to the KGB archives was opened for those whose relatives had been repressed. For example, Georgy Petrovich Vins gained access to his father’s documents only in 1995. Through such relatives, for which I am immensely grateful to them, I collected some information. There were many documents in the archive of the Council for Religious Affairs. This archive was transferred to the Central Archive of the October Revolution, to which I had free access. I worked there for two years, periodically. And there were rich archives from the KGB, from the GPU of the 1920s, and various correspondence between the Council for Religious Affairs and the KGB and the All-Union Council of Evangelical Christians-Baptists (AUCECB).

Are there now other historians in our brotherhood who are seriously engaged in this subject?

Today there are several historians. There is Vladimir Popov. He is a biographer-historian. He has written a biography of Pavlov and a detailed biography of Prokhanov. He is now working on someone else. There is the biographer-historian Leonid Kovalenko. Georgy Vins is known as a historian. There is a historian in Germany, Ivan Petrovich Dik, who specializes in the German Mennonite part of our brotherhood. There is also Viktor Fast, who has already written several books on the history of the Karaganda church during the 1930s, and Viktor Dik, who recently wrote the book “The Light of the Gospel in Kazakhstan.” I have their books, and I have given reviews on them. These are the brothers who are engaged in history and have written books. There are yet unpublished works by Alexey Migdalin, “The Gospel in the Yenisei Land.” There are many other historians, but I do not know of books written by them. Many write articles, express opinions. But so far none of them undertakes to write the third part of the history of the period after 1967. And the time has already come: after all, I only wrote up to 1967. It is already time to write the history at least for the next period, of 25–30 years.

Sergei Nikitovich, does it not seem to you that our history of recent decades is simply boring? It looks like nothing is happening?

Modern history is not at all boring. And a great deal is happening, and I would even say—sorrowful things. But I am no longer able to assess it. There are serious questions in modern history. For example, two unions were finally formed in 1967: the AUCECB and the Council of Churches. They exist in parallel with their churches, and there are some interrelations. I do not know what they are today. One must study the materials. That is the first question. The second question—emigration, mass emigration, the fourth wave. So, the last wave of emigration is a tragedy for our brotherhood. That is my opinion. The entire able-bodied core of the strongest churches ended up here, in the USA, and most of the able-bodied found themselves out of work. And there, in Russia, everything is left to inexperienced young people. There is now an influx of American missionaries of various persuasions. There are American Baptists from both conventions, all sorts of liberals, and charismatic missionaries. And the brotherhood there is being devastated. And here, I agree with Vera Kushnir’s opinion, perhaps the third generation will hold on, since the fourth emigration wave is large in number. The remaining generations, apparently, will be lost. There will be no Russian Slavic brotherhood here. This can be seen from the experience of the third, post-war, wave of emigration. This is a difficult part of history. People ask me if I intend to write the third part. I say: “No, please spare me. I am already 83 years old; I will not last.” And I do not know who would begin and undertake this task. So far, there is no one. And it is already time to write. And to begin with the painstaking work of gathering materials: primary sources, documents. History loves facts confirmed by documents.

There is an opinion that if it had not been for those brutal Stalinist repressions of the 1930s, when most of the church leaders were liquidated, our present-day Evangelical-Baptist brotherhood would be different. What do you think about this?

I will answer this question as a historian. History does not know the subjunctive mood: “What would have happened if it had been this way?” History does not answer this question. It answers the question of how it was, how not to do things, or how to do them. Because in history we see what has already happened; there is already experience, both positive and negative: please, make use of it. But history never answers the question of what would have been. That can be done by writers, publicists, journalists, and fantasists. But I never say this in history. Making forecasts is not the business of history. I am not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet, but merely a historian, and a small one at that.

Sergei Nikitovich, in your opinion, what should our generation learn from those who went before us?

A lot. We need to learn from them the building up of local churches. As for unions and various associations — all that is so insignificant! In those very 1930s, what unions existed? None. All union leaders were either in prisons, or had been settled for life in Kolyma, or had been shot. But the local churches, as small groups, did exist nonetheless. They lived their own spiritual life, as much as circumstances and conditions allowed. It was from them that the restoration of our brotherhood after the Second World War began. Unions and associations make it possible for local churches to work together in the area of mission, evangelism, obtaining education, and publishing literature. But issues of spiritual life are the business of each local church. It is inner life. And this life does not substantially depend on the union or association to which it belongs. We also need to learn from our predecessors the continuity of generations. In general, the issue of continuity is a very important question. I am not talking about the succession of ordination of ministers. I am talking about the continuity of teaching and practice of Christian living. My generation, those who became believers right after the war, had some contact with the older brothers who survived the repressions, and we learned much from them. And there was no such gap as there is today.

And finally, Sergey Nikitovich. Please tell our readers what you are doing now, at your 83 years of age?

I thought that after the publication of the second part of my book, I would be done with history. But that was not to be. A year and a half ago, I wrote a short history of Russian-Ukrainian Baptism as a textbook for translation into English. The idea was suggested to me by professors at American seminaries. They have nothing they could offer their students to read on the history of Russian-Ukrainian Baptism… So they proposed that I write a brief history of about two hundred pages, which would incorporate both previous books. And I did it. Everything went into it, only concisely and compressed. Doctor of Theology Walter Sawatsky read it and approved. And now a translation into English is being made.

In general, it is difficult to find a translator from Russian into English, and we had difficulty finding one. Right now I also have offers from Germany: to translate it into German and, perhaps, publish it in Russian as well. I told them I had no objection, please, go ahead. If only there were a sponsor.

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